MARTIN: Greetings, everyone. This is Martin Pytela for Life Enthusiast podcast. And with me today, doctor Kim Chronister. I will let her tell her own story. But first and foremost, Kim is an accomplished person. She’s been through the mill. She has her chops. So listen carefully because her knowledge is won through the mill of life. This is not just reading books. Hello, Kim Chronister.

KIM: Hello. Nice to see you again. How are you?

MARTIN: That’s great. Yeah. You know, life always deals me something interesting every time.

KIM: Yeah.

MARTIN: Care to review some of the accomplishments that brought you here so that we know that you have the authority to speak of whatever we’re going to do next?

KIM: Absolutely. So I’m a clinical psychologist, so I have a doctoral in clinical psychology. I’ve worked in inpatient treatment centers, outpatient treatment centers, been a director of rehab settings, worked in substance use, mood disorders. Right now, what I kind of specialize in are relationships, breakup, recovery, and helping people get through kind of arduous times and finding themselves, their identity and getting out of depression. So that’s kind of my wheelhouse right now.

MARTIN: Boy, we’ve done a lot of that these last four years, have pretty much compressed all the things that have been perhaps brewing. Right? And then we have had the shutdowns and lockups and God knows what’s that really, what’s the word? Amplified all the friction that we may have had in relationships. Right.

KIM: Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s why I think the research on what actually makes people feel filled up inside and the relationships that kind of nurture their identity and kind of making sure that people are thinking about self expansion, like people that actually motivate them with their goals if they’re going to be dating them. And then just the prongs of contentment with positive psychology research.

MARTIN: Right. I think reflecting on myself, pursuit of a worthy goal seems to be the method by which I structure my day, as in I wake up wanting to do what I’m about to do. So that I think is reasonably healthy.

KIM: Very much, yes.

MARTIN: If I were to find myself in a relationship that’s unwinding itself or has unwound itself, that would be pretty. What’s the word? I don’t know. Depressing.

KIM: Right? Yeah. I mean, you have hit it on the head there. So the positive psychology research really shows that connection, meaning and purpose and activity and then a sense of identity or what help us become happier or content. So if we have that connection prong messed up there, whether that’s feeling lonely within a relationship, or recovering from a breakup or seeing red flags in a relationship, not feeling like yourself there. Someone may be denying your needs for self expansion or growth. All of that can be really affecting your mood and how you feel about yourself. And then meaning and purpose you hit on, which is really, really excellent.

You going for your goals alone can be a really, really huge motivator and really shift your mood in a positive way. So sometimes people will have a career where it could even be fulfilling. It could not. But just adding a passion project really does huge things for change. I’ve had a client recently that started doing just coaching for their kids soccer team, and that alone shifted so much that we were able to terminate.

MARTIN: Yeah. Just giving of yourself to others. Right?

KIM: Yeah. So that’s really meaning and purpose, and it’s something they can be passionate about. So that’s why I take hobbies and passion projects really seriously with my clients, because we see such a shift in it.

MARTIN: Yeah. I’m thinking of a lot of women who end up, what’s the word? Washed up on the shore because their relationship unwound itself and they invested heavily into defining themselves as a partner in a relationship. Right. So I think you may have a whole bunch of tools to help people who find themselves in that sort of “I don’t know. I was a partner to this person, and I’m not. Who am I? What am I?” Right?

KIM: Yeah. Yeah. Their identity can be easily wrapped up into someone else, and that’s no fault of yours. That could just mean your schedule was so taken up that you didn’t, kind of explore. I call it a sample platter. You’re not always going to think, especially if you’re depressed, you’re not always going to think everything sounds appealing to do that’s extracurricular. But actually just giving yourself a sample platter, you’re committing to trying one new thing every week or a couple things every week, whether that’s a Reiki class or a yoga class or martial arts, these things are incredible for connection, meaning and purpose and activity.

And that’s why one thing, one little shift can really help with contentment and get you to remember who you are, explore who you are, build on your identity, and that is organically taking you away from ruminating simply on that other person.

MARTIN: Yeah. I really like the idea of committing to sampling.

KIM: Yeah. Committing to sampling. Yes. People think, I don’t like that idea. But sometimes they haven’t even made a list, like a brainstorming list of things they’ve never done, their friends doing that maybe they thought was cool. Learning an instrument, a language. I mean, just making a list of that and committing to trying one class for everything.

And there are a lot of free activities, too. It doesn’t have to be expensive, but those type of things start rebuilding your identity when you’ve lost it and when you’ve had that self esteem kick. And then organically, you’re going to be able to heal better from a breakup or tolerate a relationship better, because the focus is more on yourself. And you have to remember, too, is that you’re more attractive in a relationship when you’re going for your own goals and you have these interests. That’s why they were probably attracted to you in the first place. So whether you’re on a team or you’re in a relationship, you really want to be careful on self-neglect because that’s what’s going to make you feel resentful. They’re not going to be so attracted, and the mood’s going to be shifted.

KIM: It’s going to be off. And then we shouldn’t have to have a breakup just to find ourselves. I really encourage that within a relationship. And if the other person isn’t encouraging self expansion, then you want to hold your boundary and just say, well, I have to make time for this. This is really like.

MARTIN: I guess you need to come to the realization whether you’re in a relationship that you want to fight to save or are going to be so much better off getting out of.

KIM: Yeah. And the other thing is this, you want to also be cognizant of encouraging your partner’s self-expansion. So even if you feel jealous or you’re worried that they’re going to meet people, no. They’re going to be more resentful and more depressed within the relationship if they’re not getting out and trying new things. So I know it sounds simplistic, but sometimes it’s hard to get out of that routine of just coming home to your partner and doing nothing else. But that’s really the remedy to a lot of depression, a lot of relationship issues, and a lot of self esteem issues.

MARTIN: Yeah, I’ve seen that in a lot of our clients. Because they arrive at the end of children in the house. Right. Kids are the emptiness syndrome, where all of us, you’re looking around and say, now what?

KIM: Yeah, that’s right. I’m glad you brought that up. I wanted to bring that up earlier. That’s very good. So you’re losing your identity because your identity was really attached to parenting. And once you feel like you’re not needed anymore, that’s when you want to rebuild. I really want to just emphasize that sample platter because we think, like, okay, like, I have to just go back to my old hobbies or I have to go to the gym. It can look a lot different than that.

It can look like different classes every day. It can be colorful. It can be things that are in nature. It could be water sports. I mean, you really want to be creative with what you want to do because we don’t want to make more work for you. Building your identity should be fun and pleasurable. And social exercise, everything that you’re leaning into at this point in your life would want to be pleasurable. That way it’s sustained.

KIM: It actually has the motivation intrinsically to keep going for it. So being playful, thinking about things you’d want to do on vacation, you can do those things when you’re at home. We just get in that mindset that we’re only going to do water sports or parasailing or hiking on vacation. No, that stuff, if you build it into your life, it is remarkably impactful.

MARTIN: Yeah, that’s really interesting because, yes, when we put ourselves into a new environment, we have new perceptions and we see ourselves differently. And many avenues seem to open up and usually do that by traveling. But you can do that locally just by going into a new setting. Right?

KIM: Big time. Big time. You get new hobbies and interests. That way you can inspire your partner, too. And then most people know this, but when you’re doing novel activities with your partner, meaning new activities or someone you’re just dating, you’re more likely to have more dopamine and be more attracted to them when you’re doing new things together. So novel activities, different restaurants, different places, different activities, those adventures are going to make them more attracted to you because they’re novel. So we have to be careful not to stay in a routine too much. It really can be very dangerous.

MARTIN: Yeah, you’re so right on that one.

KIM: So there are. Obviously, we wanted to talk about some darker traits of people. And a lot of people can hold darker traits when it comes to personality disorders or,

MARTIN: Yeah, yeah. You want to definitely evaluate whether you’re in the right relationship or not, right? You should probably make a list. Kim, why don’t you just start the list? If you hit this, this, this and this. You might want to try something else.

KIM: Yeah. I think to piggyback on the trait of having a partner that’s not into you self expanding, because maybe they are possessive or insecure or worried or even just codependent. You want to look at that if they’re isolating you too much. But I will say this. Even if they’re possessive and jealous and all of that, don’t think, don’t fall into the trap that they’re going to be attracted to you just because you stay home all day and do everything they say. No, just because they say they want that, truly, even with people like that, they’re still wanting you to be your own person.

And that’s one of the dangerous things, is just letting that, allowing that isolation to happen and being influenced to isolate to please a partner. And it can be little things. It can be like them just complaining. Why do you have to be gone another hour? You really have to not feel bad about it, as hard as that is. But once that isolation starts, you become more vulnerable to feeling less attractive, losing yourself, and not having as much support system on the outside if something does fall apart.

MARTIN: Yeah.

KIM: Yeah.

MARTIN: Good. Okay, so let’s just go psychologist. What is the so called dark triad?

KIM: Right, the dark triad. This is really when it comes to personality traits that can be on the darker side, things that can affect other people. So interpersonally, they might affect you in a negative way. So you want to be really aware of these things. So there’s a dark triad. And the triad involves three different categories. One is sociopathy, another one is machiavellianism, and another one is narcissism. So narcissism, there can be kind of some grandiosity, thinking that they’re better than others.

Deep down below, they might feel like they’re not as good as others, so they overcompensate by being grandiose and feeling like they’re better than others. They might put people down, being too self-involved. Sociopathy, psychopathy. More on the psychopathy. With the dark triad, it involves impulsivity. So doing things without thinking, risk taking, lack of regard for other people, it’s all about them and what they can get out, and then machiavellianism on that triad. That other category is really about manipulation. So, there are certain things that people do, interestingly enough, like people that ghost other people.

Studies show that they might be more apt to be on that dark triad. It could just be someone that’s very avoidant also. So you have to be careful. They could be avoided or they could have one of those dark triad traits, but you want to look for empathy, you know, and the superficial charm, that’s not enough that just because someone’s charming, that doesn’t mean they have empathy. So I think really trying to dig into what people’s values are what they’re,

MARTIN: That’s a really good one. Once you can fake sincerity, you really got it made.

KIM: That’s true. And usually people get sloppy with that because they kind of almost want the truth to come out when they have the dark triad. The key really is to not ignore those signs of manipulation, self centeredness, lack of regard for others. If you hear that they’re saying things that you would never say, that’s a little red flag for you. Really think about and journal things that are red flags for you. Is that aligned with your value system? Is that something you would say? Is that something you would want your family members to hear? Because you don’t want to be keeping secrets like this. And if they’re leaking out some dark traits, it could affect you very badly in the long run.

MARTIN: Yeah.

KIM: Yeah, go ahead.

MARTIN: I read a study about the psychological traits and differences between criminals and CEO’s of large companies and that they were very close with the single difference that the criminals had no compunction to do violence or to just do brutal, ugly things.

KIM: Oh, the CEO’s?

MARTIN: No, the criminals would project personal violence, whereas the CEO’s had the same personality but had the brakes on that.

KIM: Exactly. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And these people like they can get ahead in life very well. Some of these traits make them very successful. There’s certain categories of professions, they’re more likely to be that. But yes, CEO’s are one of them. So they can use manipulation tactics. They feel like they’re normal. They don’t feel like a lot of times they might have to fake empathy because they know that that’s normative. But for the most part, they think it’s normal to try to play a game to win.

MARTIN: When you have a long game, when you’re thinking, say five year, ten year horizon, when you’re building something big, you have to manipulate. No, you don’t have to. But you get to thinking that you should manipulate your way through the environment and move the chess pieces in such way so that the goal is met.

KIM: Right. When you look at you know, and that those people can be very fun, very exciting, very stimulating. So they can be pretty hard to get away from it. If you’re in a romantic relationship, there could be a lot of benefits. Like this person might be really mentally stimulating, very smart, very successful, very adventurous. If they’re impulsive, they’re going to be doing different things all the time. And like we talked about before, new adventures and exciting things are going to make you more in love, more stimulated. It can be hard to get away.

KIM: But I think that what’s important is to, like I said before, journal about the things that really look like red flags and review those journals. And then you want to think about, project into the future more. Unfortunately, when you’re with someone that’s throwing these red flags, you’re going to have to think about the future more. And that means, that does mean worrying. It does mean thinking about if you got sick, if you were vulnerable, if you were older, what kind of person do you want around you? It could feel very cold and very alone, very lonely and very cold. If you’re with someone that doesn’t have regard for other people, that is more manipulative. So if you’re more of a person that lives in the moment and isn’t worried about the future, it’s not so scary.

But if you’re someone that you really want to plan for the future and be around, someone that has more of a nurturing side, you want to try not to be in denial, and that can be really hard.

MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah. I guess, to put it simply, is that when you’re young, it’s easy because you have all the attractions for the other. For the partner.

KIM: Yeah.

MARTIN: But will they be there for you when that youth layer goes away?

KIM: That’s right. I think that. I love that you brought that up because I do think a lot of times in process with my clients. Okay, so they’re physically your type. Okay, so you have a lot of fun with them. Okay, so what happens when we’re stripped away from the fun or the looks? What are you going to be left with? And you really want to sit with that, to see what kind of partner you need for your future.

MARTIN: Yeah, I see that especially difficult for women because some men will develop finance, power, status, whatever. They can end up with arm ornaments, as they call them. They can just keep changing them because they can hoard them, right?

KIM: Yes, absolutely. So you’re talking about so a woman that’s being left by a man for a younger woman.

MARTIN: Sure.

KIM: Yeah, that does happen. And so again, that’s why we want to look at people with really, really strong value systems if you have that as well, and people that have a really high empathy level, because research also shows that relationships stay together when people have high empathy. So that means we really care about others feelings because our interests in other people, they wane, they vary. Like one month, one month or one year, you could be really into your partner. The next year, you could really just feel checked out. Now, that year that you’re checked out, that could change the next year. So the year you’re checked out, if you have empathy for the other person, you’re going to be more likely to try to work it through. Find yourself again, find ways to be into the partner again.

Do you see how empathy is so important for sustaining a relationship? Because interest can wane, big time. Depending on what we’re going through in life, how we’re treating ourselves, if we’re doing our self care, if we’re not. And people change, too. Why should it have to take a breakup for you to get in shape? We don’t want to lose ourselves. We don’t want to lose ourselves while we’re in it. Because a partner is going to get, someone else is going to get a better version of you. When you still love that partner within the relationship, you really want that for yourself.

MARTIN: Yeah. So, you want to work hard to keep what you’ve got because you spent a lot of energy building whatever you have.

KIM: Yeah. And I think it’s true, like with women, I do notice that they’ll feel: “Well, I should just be loved unconditionally.” And I get that. But I do see with my male clients, they are very visual. It’s just something that’s just kind of in them. They’re very visual.

MARTIN: There’s statistics to that. I think it’s about 60% of people are visual, 30% auditory and 10% kinesthetic or something like that.

KIM: Yeah.

MARTIN: I don’t remember off the top of my mind.

KIM: I just know that the majority of my clients, one of the issues they run into is that they can get tempted with different looks and they are very visual and they don’t like it about themselves all the time. They don’t. It’s not that they love that. It’s not that they want to feel pulled in different directions. So that’s it. That doesn’t mean they don’t have empathy, and it doesn’t mean that they don’t love you because you’re not the preferred.

MARTIN: I guess you don’t want to have the relationship built on the looks because that’ll go away. Both sides.

KIM: That’s true. That will go away. And that’s, again, why we talk about wanting someone that has great values and good and a lot of empathy, which is not easy. But if you want to find that, then that would mean not necessarily committing to the first person you date, and a lot of women do that, too.

MARTIN: Okay.

KIM: This guy’s giving me attention. So now I’m going to jump in and be loyal. You’re being loyal to someone you don’t even know anything about. So actually playing the numbers game, as long as you’re going according to your value system with what you’re doing on these dates. Right. Playing the numbers game and dating more, but dating with intention and integrity, that can be better for you because then you can actually assess what their personality is, what their value system is, and not. You don’t have to just be loyal to first person that you’re dating. I think it’s really unfortunate.

Like, it’s great for men that they want to, but a lot of these women, particularly with your audience, with the demographic, with your audience, people will get into it where they just start falling and they don’t even assess their personality, unfortunately. Especially if there’s love bombing, a lot of messaging, it’s hard. It’s hard to not fall quickly.

MARTIN: I watched that. That is amazing how you can completely break somebody’s defenses. I was working in an office, and I watched one guy go after one specific co worker. He would just, I mean, this is before texting, he would shower her with stuff.

KIM: Yeah.

MARTIN: Just arrive over and over and over. And she was confiding in me, saying, I don’t like the guy. What am I to do? Relentless.

KIM: Relentless. And that for some people can be really attractive. It depends on the woman. But some people will do so much love bombing. They’re really good at it. And, to go from barely any attention within a relationship or with being single and just working a lot or attending to your kids and not being used to that, that can be highly dopaminergically satisfying. So it’s like being on a drug.

Yeah. Especially if they fall off one day and stop doing it as much. Now you’re like, where is this? Where’s my high? And now you get more addicted.

MARTIN: Where’s my like button?

KIM: Exactly. So the most dangerous thing is to have a lot of attention. Then it leans a little bit, then it goes back, and now it varies. So now it’s almost like you’re a gambling addict, right?

MARTIN: Yeah. You keep pushing the button, hoping to win.

KIM: That’s why gambling is so addictive, because it varies so much. So you get a really high spike and then it’s here and there, here and there. Random. And that’s the most addicting type of behavioral addiction or substance addiction, you don’t know when you’re going to get that high and usually that’s with something like gambling and love.

MARTIN: So let’s explain how you actually work with people. When somebody comes to you, what sort of circumstance do you get people in and how do you work with it? Like, what should they expect when they go to your website? By the way, what is your website?

KIM: https://doctorkimchronister.com/

MARTIN: So the doctor is spelled out all six letters?

KIM: Yeah.

MARTIN: All right.

KIM: So yes, they come to me. Well, we’re going to do exploration. It only takes about one or two sessions to figure out what the direction really should be. I do like to find out if they’ve been in therapy before. That’s kind of the first thing I do. What worked, what didn’t work. So across the board lately, I’ve been finding out that people are liking more direct feedback and I definitely have that style if that’s what’s needed. Because of my treatment experience with substance abusers, they prefer that direct treatment and the evidence based treatment.

So if you need direct feedback, then I know that, then I know that’s kind of how we’re going to go. If you need more homework, we’re going to go in that direction. If you want to process the past and trauma, obviously I have the skills for that. But typically we try to get you more grounded at first with cognitive therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, and motivational interviewing to get you in a really good place first. That’s kind of my style. I’m very strength based. Try to see what’s working more than what’s not working and then add. If you look at like someone that I’ll give an example of, I had a retired NFL player come in and he felt very lost because he got an injury and he no longer could work the job of his dreams. Right.

MARTIN: So he was 30 something or,

KIM: Yeah, he was late thirties. And after an injury he came in because he was abusing pain pills and he really lost his identity. And his schedule was what? There was barely anything on his schedule. Right. I mean, now he’s just got a totally different life. And he started becoming very co-dependent with his family, which, that’s fine to a certain extent, but he was really losing himself. So first things first, we actually developed a Google calendar and started filling it up with things that he might just be willing to try. And it ended up being where he was actually really into meditation. He was really into reading. I mean, he just put everything on that Google calendar.

MARTIN: All right.

KIM: Yeah. By the time he left treatment, he had a full Google calendar of what to expect throughout the day, set intentions in the morning, yoga, stretching. He had his workouts, but his workouts were varied, so he wouldn’t get bored. He started working on a new business. So part of that, every day, he’d be working on that business. I’m not too extreme, but just enough. And then reading, reflection at night, just everything was on