Using a therapeutic laser to treat pain and inflammation is one of the fastest, most effective modalities therapists have.  Thereby a patient’s need for potentially addictive medications is reduced.  Laser therapy can reduce swelling, pain, and inflammation. Jim and Zadok from Epoch Laser explain why their products are superior to others, and why you should consider using this healing device to support your body!

Podcast 408: Red Light Therapy with Epoch Lasers

MARTIN: We have here, based on lengthy research, a device that is capable of helping the body increase perfusion, and lower the inflammatory response, therefore it is facilitating the body to repair itself at a much faster rate, returning normal function to whatever is impeded. So this is almost like saying ‘whatever ails you, put a light on it.’

JIM: Beautifully said! I never like to say it’s a panacea and it cures everything, but it does do a lot based just on what you said, you hit it right on the head, it can be used to address a lot of different ailments and problems.

MARTIN: What sort of problem of humanity is it going to solve?

JIM: So, chronic pain in people, as you know, is across the planet. People experience it, young people experience it when they work out too hard. Older people experience it because of poor diet, poor lifestyle, and underlying diseases. And methods to treat pain are methods that involve taking a drug. When you take a drug, it goes through your system, it goes into your stomach. There are compounds that are synthetic compounds, they are chemicals, and they go through your body. And I think most people will tell you if they’ve taken pain medications, it clouds their mind. It clouds their judgment. It makes them feel sleepy. It makes them feel like going through the day strange. It may relieve the pain, but it also makes them feel strange. And our idea, and why people should be paying attention to this, and why you should be interested in our product, is the fact that we use light.

JIM: The light is shown to stimulate an ATP chain reaction in cells. So the light actually activates chromophores within the cells. This is biology, the underlying science that I’ve worked on for 20 years. So there is an absolute scientific effect of it. But that wavelength of light is not prevalent in our atmosphere today. It was there centuries ago, and it only comes to 30,000 feet, so one has to scratch their head and say: “Why does our body have a mechanism that responds, as proven scientifically, to 980 nm light if it is not in this atmosphere?

MARTIN: Let’s make this really clear. You are saying that the 980 nm light actually is filtered by the atmosphere and does not normally reach down to where we are?

JIM: Correct. It doesn’t come below 30,000 feet, but it did in biblical times! But in a modern-day industrial atmosphere, it doesn’t make it all the way down. But our body still has a mechanism within that response to that wavelength of light. It is a very fascinating thing for me as a scientist and inventor to say: “Oh, this is really interesting and intriguing, why is this happening and what benefits does it have?” And so when you apply 980 nm light to a wound, you can accelerate the closing of the wound. When you apply it to a body that is in pain, it has two mechanisms of action. It is absorbed, the photons interact with the cells, and the absorption creates warmth and space of dilation. It’s really two things happening within, the stimulation of the cells, and the vasodilation. And together, this combination helps alleviate pain without popping a pill.

One of the things that I’ve always been enlightened to is to say is: “This product not only helps relieve your pain, but it helps ignite your spirit.” And I can tell you as a therapist, who has provided laser therapy for 20 years to people is that have turned lives around. Why? Because people come off their drugs that are causing them all sorts of aches and headaches and problems. They come off their drugs, they move around, they feel better. Because they feel better after giving a light treatment, they think: “Well, maybe I’ll go for a walk.” They start to go for a walk and they say: “Oh, I should maybe eat a little healthier. I’m starting to feel better.”

So I always described this to people as a downward spiral versus an upward spiral. If you take a drug, you will lose your energy. You sit at home, you watch TV, you don’t move around. You slow down the muscles, your circulation becomes poor, that’s a downward spiral. But if you can activate the cells, create energy and light, and have people feel better, they will say: “My mind is not clouded. I’m going to go for a walk.” Now they are getting more exercise! They start to realize that maybe they should eat healthily. They get in this upward spiral. And I’ve watched so many patients of mine over the years who have gone from this downward spiral reversal to just watching their health improve, losing weight, gaining more energy, starting to work out again. It really makes a difference. And that’s just from the light, it’s not popping a pill. So that’s why I’m so passionate about the product because I’ve been able to use it as a clinician, and as somebody that helps people.

MARTIN: I understand you have two versions of the light device, the professional version, and the personal unit, right?

JIM: Yes. There’s a personal home device for people that can use this at home, it can be used frequently. And then the professional version, that is a class 4 laser, and that can be used to treat people in a clinician’s office, or used by somebody like myself, who is a therapist that can actually carry the laser around, bring it into people’s homes and offices and use it with them. Or you can have people that want to learn how to use it and become a light therapist, or a laser therapist, and they can use it with their families, friends, and neighbors.

ZADOK: And we also have the belief that the people who are able to pay $30,000 for their cars, or $15,000 for their beds, can also afford a more professional healing device, put it in their home, and throw away all the drugs. That is why we say we offer a healing light for every home.

MARTIN: All right! So let’s just say it upfront, the professional device is more expensive, how much is it?

JIM: It sits right at the $18,000 price point. You can buy accessories and other fibers with it, so you can move the price up, but the device itself is $18,000. You could also lease the device, and the lease is $380 a month. My car payment is more than that! Many people go spend $200 for a dinner at a local pub, but for just a little bit more, look what you can do to help your body!

ZADOK: Rather than say ‘home version’ and ‘pro version,’ we also like to say ‘economy version’ and a more ‘affluent version.’

MARTIN: Okay. So the personal, portable version… what is that sold for?

JIM: So that sells for $599.

MARTIN: Okay. And is that smaller, cheaper version good enough?

JIM: It’s a good question that you’re asking. Why shouldn’t everybody just use the cheaper device? It uses the same light science. On the surface, it looks like it might be a bank of LEDs, but these are single-wavelength light emitters. They are very special, and they are 980nm only. The power density across the surface of it is meant to be of a therapeutic range. Now, granted, laser treatment with the professional device might only be 10 minutes, with the personal unit it would be 30 minutes. You could use the home device a couple of times a day, it’s not as powerful as a class 4 laser, but it will actually over time have the same effects, it just takes longer, but it’s meant to be very easy to use.

MARTIN: Yeah, it’s easier for me to sit and read a book while I have my feet on top of this device. Where would you typically apply it? Wherever you hurt?

JIM: Yeah, wherever it hurts, wherever your pain point is. I know a lot of people that have diabetic neuropathy in their feet, so they set their feet on it. I’m a guitar player, and I’m getting older, so my hands are taking a hit with a little bit of arthritis, so I use it on my hands a lot, I’m just sitting comfortably in the evenings, and I can rest my hand on it. A lot of people use it for their sciatica, they just put it behind their back, and they rest while they’re sitting up in the chair. Other people that are using it on their hips, it works very well for people that are having knee surgery, it helps reduce the inflammation and the post-surgical swelling, and the pain that can be exhibited after you have knee surgery. So it can really be used anywhere on the body. The only place you wouldn’t use it is over your eyes.

ZADOK: We include wonderfully illustrated brochures that show you how and where to apply it, and we have special Velcro straps that go along with it, so it wouldn’t fall off of an area you’re treating, and they are really quite marvelous.

MARTIN: Are those straps included, or is it an extra option?

JIM: Those are included with the product. The box includes the device, the Velcro straps, a cleaning cloth to wipe the top off, the instruction sheet, with the cautions and things that you need to know, and the pictorial brochure with tips on how to place and use it. It all comes together in the box.

MARTIN: Lovely! So the typical use would be half an hour a day, sitting with the lights turned on, irradiating yourself with this 980 nm light… That’s somewhere in the purple spectrum or beyond, isn’t it?

JIM: It is an infrared wavelength. And there’s a very good reason for that. The 980mn light is having a very well-proven cellular level reaction, it’s also not absorbed in the melanin. And why is that important? Because if you have a darker color skin, the light that is absorbed in the melanin is obviously absorbed in the surface of the skin, it doesn’t penetrate deep. So 980nm is not being absorbed in the melanin, it penetrates through the surface, so it is not dependent on skin color.

ZADOK: And we also caution not to put it over dark clothing, you need to put it right up against the skin because the colors of the clothes could block it as well.

MARTIN: All right, that’s the ‘how we use it.’ It seems easy enough. Is there a chance that any of those lights will die out, or do they last for 10 years or so?

JIM: They have thousands of hours of use in them, you are only using them for half an hour at a time. So it’s going to last for years. We offer a one-year warranty on the product. We offer a 30-day money-back guarantee as well if it doesn’t work for the person, for whatever reason. Some people have convinced themselves that whatever they take won’t work for them. They have a propensity to not heal themselves for whatever the reasons are.

MARTIN: Can people expect a ’30 day miracle?’.

ZADOK: I can tell you that just one treatment will make a difference. That’s why this company won my heart. I had something similar to neuropathy in my feet, it was like arthritis or something, where there is a lot of pain and tingling going on. One treatment relieved the pain. It was the only thing that ever helped. So I had to have more of it, and the more I had of it, the bigger the pain relief.

JIM: It really depends on a person and a problem. Zadok had a great effect, where he used it and he saw an immediate result. If you use the pain scale as an example, and you say: “I’m at an 8 to10,” you use the device, and a couple of days later, you may be at 6 to 8. And then a couple of days later that may be 4 to 6. So, over time, it drops. But I should point out that if there is an underlying mechanical problem, if you have a broken bone, if you don’t get the bone set properly, then this particular device isn’t really going to help unless you take care of the mechanical problem first. If you have a disease state that is in your blood, this can help reduce the inflammation, it may not take the disease state away, depending on what the underlying causes are. It is meant to treat pain and inflammation, but it doesn’t mean that it’s going to be a miracle cure-all, I don’t want to paint it as a panacea, saying it solves everything, but it definitely reduces pain and inflammation.

ZADOK: One of our most famous clients, 94 years young, had swollen feet, all kinds of pain in her feet, but took good care of her body. She began using it right away, and she had to have one machine for each foot. Then she got six more devices, as time went on, for all of her friends, because it had helped her so much in reducing inflammation, and bringing life and energy back to her feet, it’s a great testimonial.

MARTIN: All right. Jim, could you talk a bit about how it’s different from the typical LED and laser units out there? I mean, there are books out that talk about red lights treatments, there are several companies that sell these panels of lights, that you are supposed to stand in front of, there are several companies out there, promoting this sort of thing.

JIM: The typical LED banks of light that you see, that have red lights, or they have lines of red, blue, and green lights, those are LEDs in a row, and there’s not a lot of thought into the penetration of the light, and into the power density. So basically, the physics isn’t well studied. I see people say: “Oh, this red light is going to just penetrate deep into your body.” I’m sorry, but as a scientist, that’s not really true, there is a penetration curve into the human tissue, that is nowadays very well modeled.

MARTIN: For that, I could just sit by a hot stove and get some infrared penetrating, right?

JIM: Right, you can get some infrared penetration, and a thermal effect from any kind of infrared light, or at the infrared spa, you are going to get some vasodilation from infrared light, because it creates warmth and heat. But it’s a different scenario to say “how does that light interact with the cell at 37°C, that is your body temperature?” Does it actually create a cascade of biological events? Another thing is – what’s the energy level? If you know you need a certain amount of energy deep down into the muscle to create a reaction, and you know that each layer of tissue has some absorption, then what happens to the light as it passes through? You need to start with enough light to get deep enough, to create that cellular level reaction.

So most people grab an LED device, and they have these bell-shaped curves of light. So some of the light works, but a lot of it doesn’t, it has no cellular level reaction. So you have these great lights, but the actual effective wavelength is low in optical power because it’s only one part of the bandwidth. Our device uses 980nm, it is one wavelength, and with that wavelength, the cellular reaction is well known, the penetration through each tissue layer is well known, so it’s predictable with what you start with, and what you end with because there’s no other noise, there is no 720nm, there is no 810nm. I’d say the difference is that I chose to stick with a very specific wavelength of light, not a bandwidth of light and that I’ve well modeled it, studied it at a university level, with what the chain reactions are of the cellular level reactions, to make it predictable.

The rest becomes math, complicated math, but it becomes math. If it takes this amount of energy to stimulate the cell, what do I have to do to get through seven layers of tissue to get that amount? What’s that power density have to be? Is there an effect on time? Too short, too long? So, these protocols at the specific wavelength are well thought out, as opposed to taking a bunch of LEDs and saying: “These LEDs will warm the skin, I’ve heard red light does this, and therefore I’m going to make a product.” So I would say that my device is very predictable because it’s been very studied in terms of what it does in the body.

ZADOK: Jim, could you also explain how the power source itself also drives the light, and how that affects the Epoch laser versus these others that are on the market?

JIM: Yes! There is a lot of physics that go in with what looks like a simple array of beams. So you have a power source that drives these single wavelength emitters, but they emit light at an angle. That angle is predictable. And so if you put them in the right position together, then those circles all meet at the top, and you have a consistent power density across the surface area. That’s key to the clinical success of the product. And also using the right power source, the right type of power supply to make sure that those emitters emit the right wavelength, that is the key. You use a crappy, noisy power supply, but that can cause issues.

MARTIN: Okay, so a whole lot of understanding and studies precede this decision, right?

JIM: Right. You know, I’ve been involved with medical product development for 35 years, so I’ve always tried to make devices seem simple, even though they’re quite complicated. The science might be quite complicated underneath, but for the casual user, you want it to be simple. You want it to appear simple. You don’t want it to be packed with too much technology and cabling so it makes the device difficult to use, because then people won’t use it. You want to make it simple and straightforward, but you want to have solid science underneath.

ZADOK: And throughout his career, Jim has worked with other laser companies and medical engineering companies to create devices, he was a consultant, and he helped them develop their products. And so he realized: “I can make devices myself, I have enough knowledge, I can remove the middleman, and I will be the one getting the public devices that really work for people, instead of helping a company go out and sell these devices.” It is very impressive. If you really had the time to listen to all of his stories of all the places that he’s worked in, programs he’s been a consultant for… We are really happy to have such a being, we call him our Gentleman Jim, he’s really a kind soul. Our founder, our inventor, is a kind, healing soul, that really wants to see people get better, and get healed from their ailments. It’s a blessing to be associated with such an individual.

MARTIN: Beautiful! All right, well, this is most encouraging! I am very grateful to be introduced to your products! You can check out the personal device in our store, and if you are interested in the professional device, contact us about it, we will set up your order! And if you have any questions, feel free to call me at (866) 543 3388! This is Martin Pytela for Life Enthusiast, with Jim Ohneck and Zadok Ra Osiris from!

JIM: Thank you very much.

ZADOK: Yes. Thank you!

MARTIN: Thank you kindly!