Podcast 440: Panaceum for Healthy Microbiome – Part 2

Spencer Feldman from Remedy Link joins Martin Pytela to talk about his new product called: Panaceum. In this two part series, we will discuss the microbiome in great detail.

Today in Part 2, we discuss the microbiome in further detail. We explain how having a healthy microbiome may be the solution to many of our common health problems, while including some of Spencer’s personal experiences with the product.

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MARTIN: Hi, this is Martin Pytela for Life Enthusiast podcast, with me Spencer Feldman. This is our part two deep dive into microbiome. This will get technical. So those of you who have complex problems or need to explain something to your doctor, because your doctor has not gone to school to learn about microbiome. Unless he or she’s very active on reading the thousands of studies that have been coming through. Microbiome is the most studied aspect of human body aspects of late. Anyway, here’s Spencer Feldman. Let’s dive in.

SPENCER: Hey Martin. All right, let’s get to part two.


SPENCER: So, you know, in part one, we talked about what the microbiome was, how we lost it, how we gain it back again, some tricks the trade of what you can do to get a good microbiome. The main of which is just feeding it properly. So now let’s talk more about some of the things that go into a deeper dive. First off microbiomes are everywhere in the body. It was previously thought that there were five primary microbiomes, the gut, mouth, skin, vagina, and sinuses, with the gut being the largest, comprising 90% of the bacteria in the body. We now know there’s a microbiome in the liver, the gallbladder, the brain, the lungs. And I’m confident that in time we’ll find a microbiome in every organ of the body. And when these microbiomes are fed with a variety of different oligosaccharides and are healthy, they protect the organs they live in from infections as well as participate in regulating their function.

SPENCER: However, when we don’t feed our microbiome, then there are only three outcomes. Dormancy, death and phenotype drift for the bacteria and the microbiome. So let’s talk about these. Another name for dormancy is hibernation and bacterial cells that hibernate are called persister cells. When bacteria run out of oligosaccharides to eat, they can simply go to sleep. And as soon the oligosaccharides return, they wake up again. This is a great strategy for the microbiome. After all, even successful hunter-gatherers, don’t always get food. They might be injured or get sick or have bad weather, or just bad luck for a few days.

The issue is if we don’t supply our microbiome with an adequate supply of oligosaccharides for more than a short time, the dormancy process can cause problems. When bacteria go dormant, they trigger the release of compounds of polyphosphates and bradykinin which increase membrane permeability, and lead to a leaky gut and leaky blood brain barrier.

SPENCER: And we’re going to get more about into those two. But one thing to know is the same process that causes a leaky gut also causes the blood brain barrier to leak. The second result of a lack of oligosaccharides is that bacteria can just die. Not all bacteria are good at going dormant, and even those that can hibernate have to wake up eventually. And if there’s still not enough food for them, they can just die.

And then the third outcome is phenotype drift. That means they evolve to different forms. A healthy microbiome has a wide variety of species, but very little variety in phenotypes. The bacteria are all happy and well fed and don’t need to change much. On the other hand, a lack of oligosaccharides and the presence of parasites can trigger phenotype drift, turning good bacteria pathological. A sick microbiome loses species one by one, and those that survive adapt to the low oligosaccharide environment by finding a new food source. This can be undigested food that spills over into the large intestine, or they can just translocate into the body and start eating us. So let’s look at the spillover in more detail.

SPENCER: We talked a little bit about it in the beginning, in part one. The only things meant to enter the large intestine are oligosaccharides and fiber. But if we eat more protein, fats and carbohydrates, then we can digest and absorb, they spill into the large intestine. And we’ve mentioned how this could happen due to lack of proper chewing, low stomach acid, low bile secretion, low pancreatic secretion, could also happen if the small intestine just can’t absorb as much as you’re giving to it. Another way this can happen is if a person has a great digestive system, but they just overeat and take in more than anyone could digest at one time. Another way this can happen is if the small intestine is damaged, like we said, and just can’t absorb the food. Regardless of how it happens, proteins, fats and carbohydrates in the large intestine are a problem.

SPENCER: Now, if fat and protein get to the large intestine, clostridia the common gut bacteria through phenotype drift, which we mentioned earlier can turn into a form that turns proteins into the toxic diamines putrescine and cadaverine, which is found in bad breath, putrefying corpses, and certain other conditions humans can get. If fats and proteins get into the large intestine, clostridia a common gut bacteria can, through phenotype drift, turn pathological and turn proteins into the toxic diamines putrescine and cadaverine found in bad breath, putrefying corpses, and some other conditions.

They also create ammonia and toxic short chain fatty acids like valerate, isovalerate, and isobutyrate. Clostridia can also turn fat into reuterin, which is a broad spectrum antibiotic like Cipro, acrolein which is a highly reactive genotoxin and mutagen, and trimethylamine which causes arterial plaque. And if carbohydrates get into the large intestines, you can get an overgrowth of candida, excessive hydrogen gas formation that can lead to methane production. And we’ll get to that in a minute because it’s an important issue.

SPENCER: So these are one example of the dangers of phenotype drift. If there are enough oligosaccharides in the diet, then even if you have the occasional spillover into the large intestine from a feast, the bacteria won’t have the pathways to putrefy it because normal clostridia doesn’t putrefy. It’s only when we’ve starved these good bacteria and they phenotypically shifted to pathological forms that you start having the issues. If however, you don’t have enough oligosaccharides in your diet for a long enough time, and you have chronic spill over into the large intestine, then the phenotype drift will occur and the clostridia will learn how to putrefy undigested food. This putrefying form of clostridia is also responsible for tetanus, gangrene, necrotic hepatitis, and pseudomembranous colitis, among other things.

MARTIN: You know, what’s interesting is that for example, children with autism have been known to have Clostridium difficile overgrowth. And tests showed that as long as they were kept on an antibiotic, the antibiotic was blocking the Clostridium and they were more normal or having a better outcome. But the moment the antibiotic was discontinued, the Clostridium returned to the overgrowth and symptoms returned.

SPENCER: Yes, absolutely. And autism’s a huge part, we’ll get into that in a little bit. A second issue with spillover and phenotype drift is that it teaches our bacteria to eat us as well. So having bacteria in large intestine, eating fiber and oligosaccharides is not a threat to us. We’re not made of fiber or oligosaccharides, we’re not plants. On the other hand, if you have protein spill over and cultivate bacteria that eat protein in large intestine… Well, your internal organs and muscles are made of protein. If you have fat spill over and cultivate bacteria that eat fat in large intestine, well the brain and nerves and all the cell membranes are made of fat. And if you have carbohydrates spill over well, you cultivate carbohydrate eating bacteria in the large intestine and the joints and the cartilage in your joints are made of carbohydrates.

SPENCER: So part of the healthy microbiome is making sure you don’t have spill over into the large intestine. By working in our digestion and not eating to excess, because you don’t want to teach them to eat your own tissue. All right, let’s take a look at some dietary hacks. Let’s take a look at some diets that people are trying now with this new understanding that we have. A carnivore diet, someone who just eats meat is someone who can’t digest or absorb carbohydrates. When they try, they get spill over into the large intestine and they just feel terrible, but they can digest protein really well. Like the carnivore, someone who’s doing keto and feels well on keto also probably doesn’t digest carbohydrates well, but they can digest fat pretty well. And the vegetarian or vegan is probably someone that doesn’t digest protein well at all.

SPENCER: And when they try, they get spill over of protein with large intestines, but they can digest carbohydrates just fine. And the person that feels great on a low fat diet, well they’re not digesting fat well. People gravitate to these diets because they lack the pancreatic enzymes to properly digest certain foods. Now it’s good that people are able to avoid foods they don’t digest well, but it’s not a long-term solution. If they never address the underlying issue of pancreatic deficiency and spilling and dysbiosis. One, they’re going to develop long-term deficiencies of the foods they’re not eating. And two, the enzymes that the pancreas should be creating not only digest proteins, carbohydrates, and fats in the intestine, but these same enzymes are then reabsorbed back into the bloodstream to digest rogue proteins, fats, and carbohydrates from normal wear and tear of metabolism. Without enough of these enzymes, the waste material accumulates and causes all sorts of problems.

SPENCER: Specifically regarding the carnivore diet, I would offer a few points. One, carnivore animals eat the intestines of the animals they kill. And in the intestines they’re finding the digesting plant matter. So even carnivore animals are eating plants. Two, the Hadza of Tanzania, the best studied hunter-gatherers only had successful hunts about every third day, their staple food was still tubers. You know, while being a carnivore may be fine, long term we just don’t know because we don’t have any human studies or any groups of people that have done it. And third, since a carnivore diet is only going to obtain meat oligosaccharides, the microbiome is going to be of limited genetic diversity. I want the most genetically diverse microbiome possible. So what I would say to the carnivores is: Fantastic! You found that you don’t digest carbohydrates well, and you found that you can survive on meat.

SPENCER: You went from a bad microbiome to a good, but very limited microbiome. Let’s upgrade you to the full, complete complement. Let’s get you all the way to a good omnivore microbiome, and you’ll get healthier still.
I promised we’d talk a little bit about methane and flatulence. So let’s talk about that. Okay, so the gut is always making hydrogen. If you have a lot of carbohydrates hitting the large intestine, you can end up with an excess amount of hydrogen. In a healthy microbiome, hydrogen and carbon dioxide are being formed naturally and they turn into acetate, which is a valuable short chain fatty acid. Also hydrogen being the smallest element is able to directly cross an intact gut mucosa and go into the bloodstream. Or it’s an antioxidant, and the mitochondria, I believe, can use it.

SPENCER: In a sick microbiome with carbohydrates spill over, excessive hydrogen can turn into methane. Protein spill over can create cadaverine, putrescine, skatole, indole, and hydrogen sulfide, and other decomposition and putrefaction end products that give the hydrogen methane the bad smell. And it also like we said slows transit time by paralyzing the intestinal muscles. So what we really want is for any excess hydrogen… First off, we don’t want to make excess hydrogen. We want to avoid fermenting in the large intestine, but we want any excess hydrogen we do make to go down the acetate pathway, not the hydrogen sulfide or the methane production pathway.

So how do we do this? There’s three bacteria that are involved in this competition for what to do with hydrogen. You’ve got the methanogenic archaea. Okay they’re not actually a bacteria, but close enough. That will be the Methanobrevibacter smithii, and that makes methane. And then you’ve got the sulfate reducing bacteria Desulfovibrio, which makes hydrogen sulfate.

SPENCER: And then you’ve got the acetogenic bacteria [unintelligible] hydrogenotrophic which makes acetate. Now the ones that make methane, methanogens, these are extremophiles. They were among the first life forms on the planet living by underwater volcanic vents. And they do really well in extreme conditions where nothing else can survive. These are like the weeds of the gut, right? They’ll grow in really terrible conditions, but they’re very easily outcompeted as long as there’s enough food source for more advanced bacteria to take over. So as long as there’s enough sulfate in the diet, methanogens won’t be able to compete. And sulfate is created from exposure to the sun from sulfur elements get to the skin, which turns a sulfide to sulfates. And it’s also in the primitive diet. Sulfate is also reduced by certain toxic elements, glyphosate in particular.

SPENCER: Now while I do put chondroitin sulfate in the Panaceum product, personally I take an eighth of a teaspoon of magnesium sulfate food grade and water six times a day. So I’m getting both magnesium and the sulfate. And like I said, if you’ve got enough sulfate in there, you’re going to shunt away from the methane production. And that is only going to leave you with acetate and some hydrogen sulfide. A little bit of hydrogen sulfide is not a big deal. Actually you need it. It actually plays a lot of roles in wound repair. Yes, it’s one of the compounds that gives flatulence bad smell and too much is not only embarrassing, but can also cause cell damage, leaky gut and Parkinson’s. But like I said, you need a certain amount. It inhibits phenotype drift in the gut mucosa, it stops translocation of bacteria into the body.

SPENCER: It’s a fuel source of mitochondria, it participates in tissue healing. It stabilizes arterial plaque, it’s a general anti-inflammatory. So the point is you want to have some of it just not too much. And so the key to not having too much hydrogen sulfide is the microbiome needs to be properly regulated. The microbiome will only create: the right amount of hydrogen sulfide if as a whole it’s in a healthy state. So what’s the answer to this take care of your microbiome with oligosaccharides and other techniques. And you will downregulate your hydrogen sulfide production if it’s in excess to the right amount. OK.

MARTIN: You know, there are people selling machines, gadgets that will produce hydrogen gas. And having success with pushing hydrogen gas saying, well this is the most rejuvenating thing you can offer your body. So here you are saying, well, except excess hydrogen gas is troublesome.

SPENCER: Well, excess hydrogen sulfide. Excess hydrogen alone in your gut, it’s just going to give you flatulence. The hydrogen sulfide is definitely a problem if it gets too high. And if you have methane producing gut bacteria and not enough sulfate that hydrogen will turn a methane and then methane’s a problem. But breathing in hydrogen is, you know, I was breathing in hydrogen from gas tanks before they even had machines for this. I’m a fan of it, I now have the machines that make it. And yes, it’s a useful thing. I find it calming a little bit. I don’t think breathing it’s going to cause the issue, because the issue with excess hydrogen production is more a side effect of a microbiome that’s out of whack.

MARTIN: All right. I wanted to address that. And the other interesting thing is I’ve run into a lot of people who are unable to eat onion, garlic, sulfur containing veggies, right? Even the rest of the cruciferous are pretty problematic for a bunch of people. Do you have thoughts on that?

SPENCER: Well, I haven’t studied it, but my guess is it’s a combination of one not properly digesting it down. And then two, not having the right mix of bacteria to take all the parts that are broken down and turn them into their proper end products. And having it get caught halfway, and this happens a lot and we’ll address this when we get to short chain fatty acid production, because if you have…One bacteria will eat one oligosaccharide and then create something else which gets eaten, which creates something else which gets eaten and so forth down the line. And if you can’t go all the way through, you end up with these partial metabolites that wreak havoc in the body and we’ll get there.

The next thing I want to talk about is something called zonulin, which is starting to make the rounds in the alternative medical communities. Zonulin is one of the primary molecules that control how tight membranes are. Intestines, blood brain barrier, arteries, veins, capillaries, lymphatic vessels, the membranes of all our internal organs, and of course our skin. In a healthy person, when there’s a toxin in the gut, right? You eat something that’s gone bad, you know, a bad oyster. The intestines releases zonulin to get rid of the toxin by flushing water into the gut, creating diarrhea. And then you get those peristaltic waves, right? And there’s a peristaltic wave that starts midway in the small intestine and goes down and that’s diarrhea. And there’s another one that goes midway and goes up, and that’s the vomiting reflex. This is meant as a temporary strategy and it works great, you’ll get flushed out of the toxin. The problem is chronic elevated zonulin levels, not enough to create diarrhea, but enough to cause the membranes in the body to leak. And it backfires because the exhausted intestinal cells can no longer maintain a positive water pressure and toxins and bacteria get into the bloodstream. This is diarrhea in reverse. We’re not flushing junk from our guts out of our body, we’re flushing junk from our guts into our body.

MARTIN: Leaky gut.

SPENCER: Leaky gut. So elevated levels of Zonulin cause the membranes to leak, which leads to the translocation of bacteria, viruses and undigested proteins and endotoxins and pyrogens into the tissues of the body. Zonulin basically makes fecal matter leak out of the gut and turns the body into one big toilet. One example of this is osteoarthritis
where patients have beta proteobacteria from their guts in their joints, right? And for the geneticists out there, Zonulin is coded on chromosome 16, which as you know, is the chromosome associated with all the diseases that humans have that other primates don’t in large numbers, the cancers and autoimmune disorders and nervous system diseases. So, it’s on chromosome 16 which can tell you something.

MARTIN: So do I hear you say, if you have osteoarthritis, you very likely have a leaky gut.

SPENCER: I would say yes, there may be other ways it gets in there, but if we’re finding this bacteria from the gut in the joints in people with osteoarthritis, I think that’s a smoking gun right there.

MARTIN: Right. And so then saying, if you want to get better, you need to take care of the intestinal terrain.

SPENCER: Well, what you’d need to do is you’d need to get the zonulin to come back to normal levels. So you’re not continually flooding the joints with beta proteobacteria and then if you have a good microbiome, the immune system should be able to go in and clear that out for you.

MARTIN: All right. And do we go straight right back to the Panaceum?

SPENCER: The main key to your microbiome is we have to feed it.

MARTIN: The oligosaccharides right.

SPENCER: Yes, yes. There’s no way around that, you know?


SPENCER: Okay. So we talked about how Zonulin creates diarrhea, and then we talked about how it can go in reverse. The intestines have a flushing mechanism, which in extreme is diarrhea. The brain has a similar version. It also flushes itself clean with higher cerebral spinal pressures and fluid pressures and pushing the fluids in and out. And pushing it through the blood brain barrier. So in creating what’s in essence of brain flush. Chronic elevated zonulin however, can deplete the brain’s reserves and results and toxins backing into the brain rather than pushing out. So by the same process by which the gut leaks and gets into the tissue, the blood brain barrier can leak and you can get toxic fluids into the brain. You could call it a reverse brain flush or brain diarrhea, if you want to be gross.

MARTIN: How about, just breach of the blood brain barrier?

SPENCER: Yes. And you know, how would you explain you know, the common way of understanding that’s brain fog, you know, Hey, I just can’t think well today. Why?, Well, you’ve got toxins going in the brain. My guess is that every organ has a cyclic flushing mechanism, all the way down to the cells, which we haven’t discovered yet. And that basically the process by which we are meant to flush our organs on ourselves out when you have excess Zonulin reverses and toxins go in. So again, it’s important to keep the zonulin down, we’ll talk about that. Another compound made in the gut that can cause havoc outside of the gut is called the lipopolysaccharide or LPS for short. It’s a component of the membrane of gram negative bacteria. And it’s one of the most inflammatory substances known to man.

SPENCER: So if you have lipopolysaccharides in the blood or tissues of the body, the body thinks it has a bad bacterial infection and launches an inflammatory response. And what happens is if you have an overgrowth of the Bacteroides class of bacteria, and this is what happens as we age, we end up with more and more bacteroides and less firmicutes and more and more lipopolysaccharides, we end up with liposaccharides passing through the leaky gut courtesy of zonulin into the bloodstream, and it creates a chronic inflammatory response. So let’s talk about what that can do.

Chronic lipopolysaccharides will lower glutathione, which means a person can’t detox properly and lower cytochrome P450, which is what would allow the glutathione to actually attach the toxin. So that’s lowering phase one and phase two detox. So actually that might be something you could use our Xeneplex product with, since it will support both cytochrome P450 and glutathione at the same time.

SPENCER: Lipopolysaccharides will increase autistic behavior, right? As you mentioned autism before. Vaccines actually contain lipopolysaccharides and adjuvants making the person hypersensitive to lipopolysaccharides. Lipopolysaccharides damage the Oligodendrocyte cells, which protect nerves, cause low blood sugar or hypoglycemia, damage thyroid hormones and receptors. Damages the kidneys, the mitochondria, the liver. If you’ve got a client with high liver enzymes and can’t figure out what it is, see if you can test for the lipopolysaccharide levels. It’ll alter mineral levels, so it’ll raise copper up and bring zinc down, which is also a mineral pattern you see in autism. So chronic lipopolysaccharide exposure is very damaging. And since the body is only expecting to get this every once in a while from an infection, it can also make stool alkaline by impairing ammonia detox.

SPENCER: It synergistically makes mercury toxicity worse. It’s leaving the immune system on constant alert, which is making huge amounts of free radicals to kill the infections, uses up the antioxidants. And eventually the person gets an exhausted immune function. And then all the other tasks such as maintenance repair that the body doesn’t have the energy to do since it’s constantly dealing with what it thinks is a life threatening infection. Okay. So how do you know if you’ve got a pathobiome? Right. Most people who have bad microbiomes driving their illnesses, don’t present with gut issues as their primary complaint.

The first is brain and emotions. Remember microbiome was responsible for regulating and producing neurotransmitters and hormones, including serotonin, oxytocin, cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, dopamine, and GABA either directly or by making things almost identical to the ones that we use, or that work just as well.

SPENCER: If you transplant the microbiome of a courageous mouse into a timid mouse, the timid mouse becomes courageous. So many of the personalities we think we have are really the personality traits of our microbiome. Another interesting study showed that if you gave women probiotics, they became less reactive to angry or upset faces. So if you have someone who is a people pleaser, a personality they can’t say no. It’s probably a sick microbiome is what you’re seeing. And then again, brain fog is another indication because the same compounds cause leaky gut cause a blood brain barrier to leak.

Another prime indication that someone’s got a microbiome that’s out of whack is fatigue. The polyphosphate which are the compounds created by bacteria to prepare it enter into a state of hibernation, also can cause a mitochondria to hibernate. Mitochondria can pick them up and go dormant. It also causes the mitochondria to leak via activation of their mitochondrial permeability transition pores. So it can really do a number on your mitochondria and by the way, check your food labels! Somebody at one point in time thought it was a great idea to approve the use of polyphosphates for use of the food supply as stabilizers and thickeners.

MARTIN: Would you define better polyphosphate?

SPENCER: Yes. it’s one of these things that the bacteria and the microbiome will use when they are going into hibernating. You’ve got the microbiome, it’s saying, gosh, there’s really no oligosaccharides here. I’m going to just take a nap for a month or a day or a week or however long. It makes polyphosphate as part of that process.

MARTIN: So you’re actually turning your bacteria into dormant.

SPENCER: Yes. When you eat polyphosphates, you’re not only making your microbiome bacteria go dormant, but also possibly your mitochondria, terrible.

MARTIN: The way I understand it, phosphate is what, PO4?

SPENCER: I believe it is. Polyphosphate is P4.

SPENCER: Those compounds are a bit more complex.


SPENCER: So you know polyphosphates are an issue. And then excessive propionic acid can lead to fatigue by sequestering carnitine, which slows the Krebs cycle. For those that want to get kind of deep into that.


SPENCER: Another indication that someone’s got a pathobiome, which is another term for sick microbiome, is chronic pain. This is because the lipopolysaccharides induce inflammation, but they also increase substance P, which is the very compound that is responsible for pain sensation. So a leaky gut makes everything hurt more.

What about parasites and cancer? You know, now that’s interesting. When we talk about the gut parasites are or something that should come up, right.

MARTIN: Endemic.

SPENCER: Parasites are an ancient adversary. The mammalian immune system is over 200 million years old, but parasites have been infecting in living with us and our ancestors for over 500 million years. And in that immense timeframe, they’ve learned a lot of strategies to evade, suppress and attack our immune system. Parasites can hide in our cells or in the case of retro viruses inside our genome, they can manipulate the cytokine and interleukin signals to make our immune system more docile. They can kill our immune cells directly, but perhaps their greatest trick is they can vary the surface proteins on their outer coat. So the immune system doesn’t recognize them now consider Trypanosoma brucei, the parasite that causes sleeping sickness. It has over 2000 genes that code for the major protein expressed on its surface. It, like all parasites, is a master of disguise.

SPENCER: This also explains why some complex chronic diseases come and go in waves. What’s happening is the immune system learns to recognize the parasite, knocks it down. Then the parasites regroup, change the protein to one of the other 2,000 genes. And then they multiply again, and the immune system can’t see them because it’s cloaked. And then it takes a few more months and then it learns it again, and this back and forth like you’ll see that this in Lyme clients. The immune system has to learn over and over and over how to recognize these things. And if the immune system isn’t good at doing that, this cycle just goes on for someone’s entire life. Eventually, this person will have good days and bad days and then good months and bad months until eventually with age and exhaustion of their immune system, the parasites finally went.

MARTIN: Well, here’s a suggestion for your next project, huh? Parasite cleansing.

SPENCER: Well, but here’s the thing. The microbiome is the one that should be doing that, I’ll explain that in a second. Immune innovation of parasites and virus is a very complex topic, but these bugs manipulating our immune system in various ways, such as interfering with immune cell growth, expression, signaling stimulating immunosuppression signals. And in the case of certain gut parasites, suppressing digestive enzymes that would otherwise digest them, which of course causes more microbiome issues. The point is parasites don’t just attack immune cells, they manipulate them. And this is a difficult task for the immune system. Some pathogens create lipopolysaccharide coats that are almost identical to human tissue. It takes a very finely tuned immune system to see that these parasites are not self while at the same time, not overreacting and attacking the healthy tissues that they’re mimicking. Cancer is another such situation.

SPENCER: Cancer cells don’t just look like human tissue, they are human tissue. Our immune system needs to be so finely tuned that they can identify and destroy cancer cells, even though they’re technically human without also destroying healthy tissue. Now here’s an example, tumors create a cytokine called TGF or tumor growth factor beta, and that converts T regulatory cells into a form that ignore cancer. Tumors also down-regulate MHC1, major histocompatibility complex one, just enough, because if they knocked it down too much, then T cells would come and kill the tumors. And if they didn’t knock it down enough, natural killer cells would come and kill them. So they manipulate the immune system to these very fine windows of opportunity where the immune system can’t see them. In fact, cancer behaves so much like a parasite that I’m convinced that they’re caused by parasites, viruses included in that group.

SPENCER: It had to evolve over millions of years to get this sophisticated. There’s no way cancer could figure out all these tricks in one lifetime every time. So our parasites and cancer – inevitable and unstoppable? Fortunately not. Parasites may be 500 million years old with a lot of tricks up their sleeve, but bacteria are 3.5 billion years old. So our microbiome has seen it all. And it is definitely up to the challenge with bacteria that parasites can bring to it. Now, remember our microbiome has a thousand times more of genetic material than we do, and that’s not even counting what the bacteriophages have. It has billions of years of learning on how to deal with parasites tucked away in its genetic code. A healthy microbiome can kill or inhibit parasites including Toxoplasma gondii, Giardia, Cryptosporidium, Trichinella, and Babesia both directly and indirectly.

SPENCER: So now we’ve got something we can work with online, and it does this directly in the gut versus with chemicals that attacks the parasites directly and it can remove the iron they need to survive. And it does it indirectly outside of the gut by uncloaking the hidden parasites so the immune system can see them and kill them. So you don’t get into this cyclic thing where it takes months for the immune system to recognize it and then kill it. A finally tuned microbiome will create a finally tuned immune system that can knock these things out faster than they can cloak themselves and shift. Now, immunologists teach us that there are two branches of the immune system, the innate and the acquired, but there is a third, it’s your microbiome. There’s a continuous war between parasites and the microbiome, each looking to control the immune system. If you feed the microbiome, the microbiome wins. If you don’t feed the microbiome, parasites win by default.

MARTIN: Yep. This is serious. One of the supporting nutrients that we mentioned is dirt, right? And I’ve done quite a bit of studying about humic acid, fulvic acid and how they went at it to the intake will facilitate a healthier terrain, in which the microbes do grow better or sustain better.

SPENCER: So the issue with humic and fulvic acid, at least humic from what I can tell is while it does increase bacterial growth in the gut, it also massively increases Clostridium difficile. And then there’s also one other bad player that I’ve seen in the literature that it will increase. So if I were going to do humic and fulvic acid, I would make sure to do them with things that were also knocking down the Clostridium or making sure I wasn’t getting guts spill over.

MARTIN: All right. Fair warning.

SPENCER: Let’s talk about candida.


SPENCER: A healthy digestive tract breaks down dietary triglycerides and releases caprylic acid, which is a powerful antifungal. It’s the natural way the body gets rid of candida. However, this requires that the microbiome stimulates the secretion of cholecystokinin so that the pancreas can be directed to release the enzyme lipase. If the pancreas isn’t releasing lipase to digest fat, it’s either because the pancreas is just too tired, exhausted or damaged from alkaline burns from bile, or isn’t getting the proper signaling from the microbiome, then you’re not going to be getting caprylic acid and you’re going to get candida growth. So to me, candida growth is really a sign that the fat digestion’s off. And that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take caprylic acid as a supplement in the beginning. What it means is eventually you want to get your gut to digest fats properly, but not too much fat because on the other hand, if you eat too much fat then you end up pushing your bacteroides count through the roof and [unintelligible] bacteria.

SPENCER: So, you know, all in balance. Let’s talk about Lyme for a minute. My suspicion is far more people have Lyme than are sick from it. Like Epstein-Barr, cytomegalo, a lot of people have it, but they’re able to keep it in control because their immune system can deal with it. Also babesia, which is a common co-infection enhances borrelia, Lyme’s ability to cloak itself. Fortunately, the microbiome can uncloak both babesia and borrelia, so the immune system can deal with it. So what I would say is if someone is dealing with Lyme for sure, get your microbiome dialed in because it’s the one that’s going to have to teach your immune system, how to deal with this.

SPENCER: You mentioned autism before. Interesting thing about autism, a couple of interesting things. One of the short chain fatty acids is in the gut that are supposed to be in the gut is propionic acid. But if you inject too much into a mouse and for 20 minutes, you get an autistic mouse, it’ll do all the things that autism will create. You know, all the social issues and repetitive behaviors and so forth and so on. Now you want a certain amount of propionic acid in your gut, but if you get too much, especially if you’re over sensitized you could definitely start creating certain brain issues and high propionic acid could be caused by the growth of putrefying Clostridium and methane producing Desulfovibrio which we mentioned.

SPENCER: High glycemic foods, meaning too much sugar. And it’s also a preservative found in dairy and wheat. So again, just like people putting polyphosphates in our food, which was a terrible idea. Someone thought putting propionic acid in our wheat and dairy was a good idea. No, it’s not, Don’t do that!

Alright, let’s talk about some ways to shift the microbiome first. What do we want to shift it to? Well, there’s something called the firmicutes bacteria ratio. Firmicutes and bacteroides are the classes of bacteria that should represent the major classes of bacteria in a healthy gut microbiome. The firmicutes make butyrates, which is a healthy short chain fatty acid that helps repair the gut mucosa and bacteroides will ferment fat and grains to make acedic acid – good. Propionic acid good or bad, depending if you get too much and formic acid, which you don’t want. Which is actually what ants use in their sting.

SPENCER: So we want some bacteriodes, but we want mostly firmicutes. And the ratios I’ve seen are about 10 to 1 firmicutes vs bacteroides. It goes down to 0.6 to 1 in the elderly, meaning they have twice as much bacteroides as firmicutes,, and that shifts them into a highly inflammatory state. So the other thing is we want to make sure that the genoshift of the firmicutes, that we have don’t shift over to clostridium, which happens to the elderly. Again, they start shifting to these bad clostridium forms. Another thing that happens with the elderly is we start seeing phenotype shifts where they start going from eating oligosaccharides to putrefying. So what do we want to do? Typically we want to raise the firmicutes bacteria ratio back to something like 10 to 1. Not everybody’s going to have that. Now fermented foods will increase firmicutes and fats and grains increase bacteroides.

SPENCER: So as we age kind of ease off the fats of the grains and start adding in some fermented foods to kind of balance that natural loss. Although it may be that if you age and you’re taking oligosaccharides, you don’t have to worry about it at all. Now of course, too many for firmicutes can also cause a problem, cause you’ll find that in people with obesity. So like again, everything in balance. I don’t recommend most commercially made fermented foods and drinks because they usually are high in histamine, which like Zonulin opens membranes and can exacerbate a leaky gut blood brain barrier. Instead if you want to do fermentation, I’d do it at home and I’d use a histamine lowering bacteria like Bifidobacteria infantis, longum, Lactobacillus plantarum as opposed to things like the histamine producing bacteria, like Lactobacillus casei, reuteri and bulgaricus, which are found in most yogurts. Unless you happen to be low on histamine, in which case you should take those.

SPENCER: All right. Let’s get into stool pH a little bit more. Stool pH is controlled partially by the short chain fatty acids made by the microbiome. The short chain fatty acids of a healthy gut – these are the breakdown products of metabolism – are primarily going to be a acetic acid, butyric acid and propionic acid. And this will give you a pH of about 6.6, which is slightly acidic, which will favor the growth of healthy bacteria. If the pH becomes either too acidic or too alkaline, then the wrong things start to grow. Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or SIBO and spill over of undigested proteins into large intestine, both create ammonia, which is one of the causes of an alkaline shift stool pH. Lack of keystone species that convert lactic acid into beneficial short chain fatty acids will cause lactic acid to build up in the large intestine or lactic acidosis and can cause a stool to become very acidic.

SPENCER: The pathological short chain fatty acid, succinic, lactic, and formic acids are also almost three times more acidic than the beneficial ones. Now let’s talk about these short chain fatty acids: the bad short chain fatty acids, aren’t bad, it’s just they’re intermediaries. In a healthy microbiome they’re created, but then they’re converted into the short chain fatty acids. So as an example Desulfovibrio turns lactate into acetate. Phascolarctobacterium faecium turns lactate into proprionic acid. So the rise in bad short chain, fatty acids due to progressive loss of keystone species that would otherwise turn these intermediate short chain fatty acids into good short chain fatty acids. Now these loss of species means not only don’t we get the benefits of the good short chain fatty acids, but we also get the bad things associated with the bad short chain fatty acids and other causes of bad short chain fatty acids would be certain infections like shigella will make formic acid.

SPENCER: Undigested lactose will turn into formic acid and internally create antibiotics. Other causes of bad short chain fatty acids include infections. So for instance, shigella makes formic acid and undigested lactose can also convert into formic acid. Formic acid is also an antibiotic and suppresses butyric acid producing bacteria. Now in the pH extremes, stool can go as alkaline as 9.0 or as acidic as 4.0, but in cases like this without an intervention, these patients are going to die of multiple organ system failure in a matter of days. So you’re probably not going to see these extremes, but the farther away a client is from a stool pH of 6.6, the worse their microbiome. In fact, for every one point shift away. So from 6.6 to 7.6 for instance, there’s a doubling of mortality.

SPENCER: pH is a simple and effective way to determine the help of your microbiome and catch things early. But remember you can have a normal pH and you can still have a terrible microbiome, but if you get just a 0.3 shift off, so a pH of 6.6 moving to 6.9, that’s a tripling of the alkalinity, so it’s an exponential rate. So small changes on pH are huge changes in the body.

What do you do if you have an alkaline stool? You’re probably getting ammonia production and, you know, take oligosaccharides temporarily lower your meat consumption and, or take digestive enzymes with meat and increase retrograde starch, that tends to feed the bacteria that can help with this. And, you know, you might consider adding some vinegar to your cells, you know, acetic acid is in the vinegar and that can lower the stool pH and you can get a butyric acid supplement. If you have a acidic stool the other hand, this is a loss of keystone species that leads to excessive production of lactic, formic and succinic acids. And if you are not able to improve this with oligosaccharides, you are probably going to need a fecal transplant. And you’d asked about that, so let’s get into fecal transplants.

SPENCER: In some cases, oligosaccharides are not enough to restore microbiome. In this case or not in the speed in which the patient is willing to wait. They’re in too much discomfort, they just need to get better faster. In this case, a healthy fecal transplant from a healthy donor might be needed. Now there’s three things that fecal transplant can do that no supplement is currently capable of. First is bacteriophages. Just like our bacteria educate and manage us, viruses called bacteriophages manage the bacteria. In a microbiome, there’s two types of bacteriophages, the lysogenic and the lytic. The lysogenic bacteriophages look peacefully inside the bacteria and benefit them by giving them new genetic code to work with. They can also stimulate a good bacteria to release elements that can go and kill bad bacteria. The lytic phages in a healthy microbiome, there’s two types of bacteria phages, Lysogenic, and lytic, the lysogenic bacteria phages live peacefully inside the bacteria and benefit them by giving them new genetic codes to work with. The lytic phages also live inside the bacteria, but when they’re activated they kill the bacteria.

SPENCER: And this is actually a benefit to the microbiome. First bacterial toxins are released from the dead bacteria, which can attack any bad bacteria that are present. Two, good bacteria can be killed if their numbers are just getting too high, right? Oh, we’ve got too many bacterioides not enough fermicutes. You know, the lytic phages can bring down the bacteroid level. And three good bacteria can be killed, if the microbiome decides it needs some part of that cell wall or on the internal parts of the bacteria, for some purpose, as an example, the DNA from the dead bacteria plays a vital role in the formation of the gut mucosa. It actually act as some structural parts of the mucosa. So Russia’s done a lot of research with bacteriophages, but here in the west, we really don’t have access to them.

SPENCER: If you want bacteriophages here, you’re really going to have to get it from another human microbiome, which is a fecal transplant. Another thing is keystone species. Our microbiome contains a lot of keystone species. These are bacteria that we might only have in a small percentage but you absolutely have to have to be healthy. One such class would be bacterial predators like the Bdellovibrio bacteriovorus, if I am pronouncing it correctly, which actually eat bad bacteria. There’s lots of keystone bacteria, and 99% of them are not available as supplements. So, if a person has lost some keystone species and doesn’t have the time to get them from the environment, a transplant can get them to get those keystone species in a day. So when do you do a fecal transplant? You know, there’s no hard and fast rules, resistant Clostridium difficile is one indication. I would say anytime the pH’s stool goes above 8.2 or below 5.5 it’s at a point where the microbiome is about to collapse and could use some help.

SPENCER: Alright, so how would you do it? So you’ve decided you want to do a fecal transplant. So how do you do it? Simple. you take the fecal transplant from a healthy donor. You put it in a Ziploc bag with some water with just enough salt to make it normal saline, take all the air out of it, shake the bag to mix it up. And then you take it either as a retention enema or you can do that also with a catheter tip syringe. You want to do it as quickly as possible from getting the stool because a lot of these keystone species are obligate anaerobes, they’ll be destroyed by oxygen.

SPENCER: So the faster you do it, the better. But here’s some things to keep in mind about donors. One, they should be tested for pathogenic bacteria, parasites, and other infections. Two, the sex is important, male and female microbiomes branch apart at puberty. So either you get a prepubescent donor or one from your same sex, because they have to be able to deal with the hormones that your own body’s creating. And male and female hormones obviously are different. Three, try to get it from someone who is a home birth, preferably never vaccinated, or never taken antibiotics, breast fed with organic food, optimally, a child between four to seven years old. It should be a child that has a good disposition that smiles and is happy because, a healthy microbiome makes a happy person. The donor should be an excellent health, both physically, emotionally and mentally, passes stool daily that doesn’t smell bad, and have good clear skin.

SPENCER: And if you can predose the donor with Panaceum for a week just to really grow it out, you know, so they have a really robust microbiome to give you. And then when you take the transplant, you should be taking prebiotics, heck you should be taking it a couple of days beforehand, so that it’s down there in the gut for the transplant to eat when it gets in its new home. That being said, fecal transplants are not going to be necessary for most of us. For those for whom fecal matter transplants are indicated, but won’t do them. Okay, probiotics, and some short chain fatty acid supplements should be considered. You have to figure out which ones you’re going to use for them based on the pH of the stool and their genetic code. Are they histamine producing or degrading, which way you want to push transit time?

SPENCER: So how long will this process take? While the mucus layer, which is home to the microbiome is only two to 900 microns thick and replaces itself every six to 12 hours and bacteria doubles every 20 minutes. That means bacteria could go from one to 34 billion in 12 hours. So it can change pretty quickly. In part one, I talked about a client who was sick for two years and was better in four days. So, you can get a great deal of improvement very quickly. What takes more time is for the membranes of the body to seal up again, for the zonulin levels to come down, we mentioned zonulin. Zonulin is something that will be created in a sick gut. If you get your microbiome healthy, zonulin levels do come down. If you need a little more help with that consider not eating wheat for a little while. But what takes longer is actually the membranes have to heal up.

SPENCER: The translocated bacteria have to be unmasked and killed by the newly educated immune system. Now that the microbiome is coming online, and that can be a month, two months, three months. So what you’ll see, whether you do a fecal transplant or just start taking Panaceum, what you would look for would be something relatively quick, you know one to three days, and then slowly over time, the long term repair work taking place as the microbiome comes back online. Let me tell you about the process of just doing oligosaccharides, which again for most of us is all that is needed. There are three phases to it. There’s clearing phase, a rebuilding phase and a maintenance phase. And the clearing phase, you want to knock down the bad bacteria and yeast that have gotten some real estate in the gut, and you can consider two products we have on our website or that you can get from Martin for this, and that’s Ellagica.

SPENCER: And I would do say three capsules, three times a day, and some Zoiben which has essential oils and some bitters in them, and you can do a quarter teaspoon three times a day for three days. We’re just trying to knock down some of the bad bacteria and free up the real estate for the good bacteria to grow. Ellagic acid in Ellagica is a polyphenol, which like I said before will kill bad bacteria, but also feed good bacteria. And the bitters in the Zoiben may interfere with the quorum sensing of the bad bacteria. So they don’t just go into persistent mode while we’re attempting to clear them out. Now on the second phase, which is the rebuilding phase. You can take a quality, multi strained probiotic powder, or capsule along with a quarter of a teaspoon of the Panaceum, or up to a half a teaspoon in juice or water three times a day.

SPENCER: And when you mix prebiotics and probiotics it’s called a symbiotic. Now the prebiotics, like we said, the ones you’re going to have access to you know, the lactobacillus and the bifidus. These are the ones for the infant gut, not adult, but this is okay, this is all right. We’re just using them as a temporary placeholder to keep the pathogenic bacteria from recolonizing until the good bacteria can grow. And then they’ll replace the bifidus and lactobacillus. So you can do that for a week or two. And then the last thing is, is the maintenance phase. And you shouldn’t need any probiotics at this point, just take a quarter of a teaspoon of the Panaceum with each meal, and, the oligosaccharides they’re going to act as decoy molecules to remove the bacteria from the mucosal layer. They’re going to feed the good bacteria, kill the bad bacteria, raise the good short chain fatty acids, balance the pH, get the bad bacteria to die, or even better get it biogenetically shift back to more useful forms.

MARTIN: Any thoughts on other fructooligosaccharides like chicory or agave inulin?

SPENCER: Not everybody can do inulin, because it’s not an oligosaccharide, it will break down into an oligosaccharide. So if you don’t have the capacity to break down inulin, then you’re not going to be getting what is made out of the fructooligosaccharides that compose it. So again, yes you can absolutely go and take additional oligosaccharides, the more the merrier. But, if you’ve got the Panaceum product this one right over here, you’re going to get all the oligosaccharides you’ll ever need, but yes, heck more the merrier. Well, to a point, okay? If you start doing too much of one oligosaccharide, you’re going to throw the gut off, right? So if you say, Hey, I want to take a lot of extra fructooligosaccharide or galacto-oligosaccharide you can actually cause issues too. Because you want to give the oligoaccharides the right ratio that it’s expecting, and then let the microbiome determine for itself what the right ratio of it’s constituent bacteria should be. If you force the issue by pounding down huge amounts of say xylooligosaccharide, then you’re going to end up with a massive overgrowth of bifidus and then that’s going to throw things off. So, more is not better. What good is the right amount and the right ratio. And in a form that’s already digested, not one that you’re asking your body to break down, to get to the oligosaccharides.

MARTIN: Right on. Great.

SPENCER: Well, let me tell you, before we finish, some personal experiences, because it’s one thing to hear all this, and it’s another to actually…

MARTIN: I was going to say, let’s talk about some practical applications really.

SPENCER: I’m happy to share with you some personal experiences I’ve had. I wasn’t sick to begin with. So nothing tremendous happened for me, but definitely some amazing things that happened. First off my vision improved. I was at my desk with my computer and suddenly I didn’t need my normal glasses. They were just too strong for me. The eyes have a very fine micro circulation. They have very fine muscles, very fine nerves, very fine blood vessels. You know, it’s not like the thigh muscle with the great big femoral artery, that’s getting lots of blood. So when the micro circulation starts to fail on the body with age, the eyes are one of the first things to go, first things to get weak and what happened? My eyesight got better and, I was sort of like, wow that’s interesting.

SPENCER: I’m able to read things now without my glasses that I couldn’t read before. I was improving my micro circulation. Another thing that happened is I got balance for the first time in my life. This isn’t something that improved, I never had it. I was a mid forceps delivery, I was coming into this world feet first, paratrooper style, and the obstetrician went into my mother and turned me around with forceps and in so doing crushed my skull. And I suspect that is why I have never had good balance, which meant I could never dance, which was always a sadness for me. Well anyway, now I have balance. I can stand on one foot and take the shoe off the other foot and not fall over. I can stand on one foot indefinitely now something I could never do. and I can dance well now for the first time. So I’m 53 and I have got a lot of dancing to make up for because boy, is it a lot of fun! <Laugh>

MARTIN: You just, just sidebar, would you associate vertigo with the lack of balance or whatever? Similar kind of pathways?

SPENCER: That’s an interesting question. I mean, clearly they’re both inner ear. For me, the improvement of my balance, I think was a rewiring of my brain. Remember we talked and the first talk about how your brain is wired inside the womb of your mother, and then again on the outside. And I think what happened is I never got the microbiome to properly wire my brain. And for me, it came out as an inability to have a good sense of balance. Which is amazing to me because I’m 53. So that meant I was able to repair some brain injuries from over half a century ago, which I think is very exciting. Cause a lot of people might say, oh, I’ve got this brain injury for so long and it’ll never get better. Au Contraire! So another thing that happened was you know, I go to a gym I have my own weights in my gym and I’m going there and I’m lifting and all of a sudden I’m like, gee did somebody come in here and, and take some plates off my rack because maybe it was one of my kids they took some weights off cause it’s a lot easier and I’m doing a lot more.

SPENCER: I looked and all the weights are there. And so I had gotten significantly stronger and my ability to be on the exercise bike got considerably longer. I was able to push myself longer and farther than I had in a long time.

MARTIN: Right on. So that would be mitochondria…

SPENCER: Sure, among other things yes. And then something interesting. So, live off grid on a farm and I was walking outside barefoot and I caught my foot in the door as I was walking out. And I thought that I had torn up the skin on the top of my foot, on my Achilles tendon. And I hobbled back home and I’m looking at, I’m thinking man, I hope I don’t need stitches and ready to see all the blood and no blood, and then I look at the skin it’s just red. It’s not even scraped, it’s not even torn. I had been noticing that as I’d been getting older, my skin was tearing easier and easier. Right. Like, you know, you grab on some of barbed wire. I’m like, gosh, I barely grazed that. Why did my skin rip? And then I realized what all these things had in common, the skin getting stronger, the muscle strength, the endurance, the balance, the eyesight, these are all things that get worse with age.

MARTIN: Yes. True.

SPENCER: I was getting younger Martin. And if this is what’s happened in months, I wonder how young I can get, like how far back can I go? Cause we know from fecal transplant studies that if you transplant the microbiome of a young mouse into that of an old mouse, the old mouse becomes younger. Its hair gets dark and it’s fur rather it gets dark and shiny again and fills in, it gets a sex drive again, it gets muscular again. so there is definitely a rejuvenating effect from repairing your microbiome.

MARTIN: Well, I’m looking forward to some, now that you’ve got it finished because clearly I could use some young mouse microbiome.

SPENCER: Shall we recap the whole thing?

MARTIN: Sure. Let’s have at it.

SPENCER: Okay. So we’ve covered a lot of information. This is almost been two hours, I think.

Let’s go over it. Many microbiomes don’t get off to a good start because of challenging births, poor microbiomes of the mother and a lack of adequate breastfeeding. Antibiotics can then knock out keystone bacterial species with insufficient oligosaccharide intake causing surviving beneficial bacteria to starve, go dormant or phylogenetically drift to virulent forms. Some of which will translocate through a leaky gut barrier into the internal organs.

Overeating and weak digestion leads to undigested proteins, fats and carbohydrates that enter the large intestine where they feed clostridia, which turns into a putrefying form. And which then sends toxic metabolites into the system through the now leaking gut wall, some of which enter the brain through the leaking blood brain barrier. Insufficient fat digestion leads to insufficient caprylic acid, which leads to candida overgrowth and a weakened microbiome no longer able to uncloak parasites, can cause parasites to bloom throughout the body.

SPENCER: In other words, the modern diet and lifestyle feeds putrefying bacteria, starves good bacteria, and without the oligosaccharides instead of getting health supporting short chain fatty acids, we get toxic amines and swamp gas. Unable to properly regulate the immune system, neurotransmitters, hormones, blood sugar, and so forth symptoms appear and the person slowly loses their health. And in the case of women of childbearing age, they also have the risk of passing that dysfunctional microbiome onto their children. Working backwards out of this predicament, you begin feeding your remaining good bacteria the oligosaccharides. You can make some dietary changes, get some exercise and if needed, take some digestive enzymes, the remaining good bacteria grow in number and those good bacteria that have phylogenetically drifted, go back to the right form. You might get a week or two of gas as the as the bacterial makeup of your microbiome shifts through various phases but that should end. Spillover of undigested foods into the large intestine will stop, clostridia should go dormant.

SPENCER: The Zonulin levels should drop down and the gut membrane and the blood brain barrier should return to proper health. Ammonia and lactic acid production in the large intestine should stop, short chain fatty acid production normalizes, stool pH normalizes. Then finally able to properly regulate the immune system, all those chronic infections should start to get addressed.

In conclusion, I would say that most chronic conditions are the side effects caused by the loss of a keystone species. Our microbiome is so resilient that even though we barely feed it and it’s clearly under assault from the environment from day one, it still manages to hang on for decades doing its level best to keep us healthy. Imagine how amazing your health would be, if you took better care of your microbiome and just fed it the oligosaccharide it needs.

We humans, we can make a new generation every 25 years, but bacteria can reproduce every 20 minutes. What takes us 10,000 years to evolve bacteria can do in five days, even faster if you consider horizontal gene transfer. This means your bacteria can shift dramatically for the good in days. It means you can get better, really fast.

MARTIN: Thank you very much. Please send me six bottles and we’re on. This was great, thank you very much. I can just in my head summarize when you’re restoring resilience to the connective tissue, to the mucosal barriers, to general organ performance, to the mitochondria you already said it it’s the rejuvenation effect. It’s a reversal of all kinds of chronic degenerative inflammatory symptoms. So things with -itis, -otis, -etes on the name, including.. well, I’m not supposed to mention any medical terms, but expect yourself returning to a healthier version of yourself.

SPENCER: It’s the best upgrade imaginable.

MARTIN: Yes. Because it’s foundational. It’s so foundational. It is the foundation itself.


MARTIN: All right. Great Spencer! Thank you very much. This is Life Enthusiast and Remedy Link. We are www.life-enthusiast.com. The phone number is 1(866) 543-3388. Call me with questions.

Author: Life Enthusiast